Entrepreneur Experience: Melinda Wittstock, Founder of Podopolo

Straight to you from Denver, Colorado, this is Precursa: The Startup Journey. We share the ins and outs of building a tech startup from inception to launch to revenue and beyond. If you’ve ever wondered what building a startup from scratch really looks like, you’re in the right place. With full transparency and honesty, we reveal it all about Precursa on our ride from idea to exit: the wins, the lessons learned and the unexpected twists and turns.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Hello everybody. And welcome back to Precursa: The Startup Journey. We are continuing our Entrepreneur Experience segment today, and I am super excited today. We’re joined by Melinda Wittstock. Who’s a five time serial entrepreneur in media and tech, and she’s currently the CEO and founder of podopolo, which is an interactive podcast app that makes listening social and podcasting profitable for creators. In addition to building solutions for creators, Melinda’s a creator in her own, right as host of the fast growing podcast, wings of inspired business named by entrepreneur magazine as number eight of 20 of the top business podcast for 2020. She’s joining us today to share her entrepreneurial superpowers. Welcome to the show, Melinda.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Hey Cynthia, it’s so good to be with you, so

Speaker 1 (01:26):
Good to be with you too. And just, just a note for our audience. Go check out wings of inspired business because I was a guest on it like two years ago. I think now, Melinda, um, oh

Speaker 2 (01:35):
God, has it been two

Speaker 1 (01:36):
Years already? I think it has been almost two years. Wow. And the podcast is phenomenal. The, just all the content that you cover is so phenomenal. And, you know, we were talking before we got on the show here that a lot of my audience are people who would love to be entrepreneurs, but it’s so intimidating. And one of the things I love about wings of inspired business is how you demystify a lot of stuff, you know, and that’s sort of our goal here on, on the startup journey as well. So I’m so excited to have you today. Oh

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah, me too. You know, it’s really funny with wings cuz I, I really created the podcast that I wish I had had yes. Earlier on in my, my journey, you know, when I was looking for role models from other female entrepreneurs in tech and there, there weren’t honestly very many that’s right. And, and there was no one really talking fully transparently at that time. When I guess I launched my podcast back in 2017, it seems like such a long time ago now, but there was no one really talking transparently or affirming or reclaiming the journeys in particular of female entrepreneurs. And I really wanted to change that game. Yes.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
And you’re doing it beautifully. I love your podcast so

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Well you were a great guest. I loved having you on. It was wonderful.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
That was the first time that you and I had connected and it just, there was so much juiciness in the conversation I just felt so heard. And so gotten it was, it was an awesome experience.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Well thank you. You’re making me feel all warm glory.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
<laugh> so thank you so much. You’re welcome. Thank you for everything that you do for, for this audience as well. Why don’t you start by telling us a little bit about yourself and how you became an entrepreneur and you know what you’re currently working on, which, you know, we know is puto. So tell us a little more about all that.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Oh fantastic. Well, I was one of those kids. Like I don’t even think I knew the word entrepreneur, but <laugh>, there was something in my DNA that made me go out when I was almost six with my black lab, uh, going door to door, demanding prepayment <laugh> for this, for this show I was creating and uh, you know, the show was, you know, I was really into kind of dancing and figure skating and like doing gymnastic things or whatever. And I’d like put together this show and I, I just had this assumption that, of course everybody was gonna wanna watch this. <laugh> it’s kinda hilarious looking back. And I, I, I really don’t know what the impetus was that that made me go do this. I just remember coming home with like a hundred dollars and saying to my dad, you know, where can we get a hundred chairs?

Speaker 2 (04:12):
And he’s like, what <laugh>. Um, so, so there was something just within me, I guess, um, you know, that was inherently entrepreneurial. And I think at the root of entrepreneurialness is being a creator, you know, wanting to just create something you can’t help it. You just wanna create something you wanna share with other people you wanna create value for other people. I think the other thing though, is really seeing a problem that, that you just are frustrated by in your own life and, and you have a solution to it and you look around and you see nobody’s doing it and you think there’s something, I don’t know that beats in the heart of an entrepreneur that says, okay, I guess it’s me, you know, I, I guess I’m gonna go and, and do that. So as I grew up, you know, I had all kinds entrepreneurial things that I did.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
And, um, but along the way, I became a journalist. I mean, you know, in my early career, in my twenties, I was a print journalist covering business. And then later media for the times of London and then moving on to being a television news anchor. And I found myself being really entrepreneurial within those things, like creating new shows or like new initiatives and just even in my student newspaper creating the ad department, you know? So it’s, it’s always been, you know, uh, really a part of me and I didn’t go to any kind of business school. I didn’t have any kind of official entrepreneurial training. I’m the sort of entrepreneur that just learned by doing it, like kind of the school of hard knocks. And I, I honestly think that’s the best way because everybody’s entrepreneurial path, yes. Is different. There’s no cookie cutter path. You are building the plane as you’re flying it and, and you’re learning as you go. However, what’s amazing right now, Cynthia, as you know, is, there’s so many more resources for entrepreneurs. Oh yeah. There’s so many mentors and so many places where you can just go in communities where you can just go and ask a question, so you don’t have to reinvent the wheel. So there’s a lot more support than there used to be sort when I was getting going.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah. That’s awesome. And you are part of that, that movement as well. I mean, you know, I know you’ve been in this, in this game for quite a while and I have as well. And you know, we both saw that as kind of like a, well, there’s a big hole here, right? Let’s how can we start plugging that hole with our unique skills? And so your background is actually in media and journalism. How, how did you come up with Puopolo? Like, what was your thinking there? Oh

Speaker 2 (06:41):
My goodness. Yes. So it, it actually, what’s fascinating about it is that I’m old enough now to look back in my life and connect the dots. Yeah. And so all of that media expertise as a media executive, as a media host, you know, creating shows, creating content combined with all the businesses that I’ve done have really been in media and increasingly in technology media tech, whether it’s advertising tech or algorithmic understanding of people by what they share in their social media conversations to help people find customers or crowdsource content or all these sorts of things. And then that with becoming a podcaster, myself and PDO really combines everything that I’ve proven in my previous businesses, as well as directly my experience as a podcaster, understanding how difficult it is as a, as a, as particularly a new podcaster to grow away a, about your podcast.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah. Like grow your reach and discoverability, engage your audience, you know, engage your audience, actually know who your audience is. <laugh>, um, and monetize, uh, your content at a time when 85% of podcasters don’t make any money from their podcast, which is crazy because it’s the fastest growing media of all time. So, so P dolo really combines a number of things to really elevate the experience for listeners and viewers with a, you know, uh, an interactive social experience. But one that’s also personalized that aids people in discovering like the raw right podcast for them and their friends and really taking yeah. And taking the learning that you, you have from a podcast, such as this and allowing people, the opportunity to interact in community to really put the learning from that podcast and to action in their lives. Or maybe just have a good gossip about, you know, the true crime podcast, like what what’s up next or whatever it could be, you know, in whatever, in whatever genre.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
And then for podcasters to be able to really engage and know their audiences and to basically benefit from all the different opportunities through subscriptions, through advertising and, and pretty soon through NFTs and other things to really be able to monetize their content and then also giving a better experience for advertisers as well. So it looks at solving the problem for all three of those, uh, primary groups in the podcast landscape, the, the listener, the podcaster creator and the advertiser, and, uh, really in terms of solving the, the structural problems that I encountered as a podcaster myself and, and through our research before we launch pod dolo, really, really getting deep into understanding the needs of all those three customer sets.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
I love that. That’s awesome. So would you say that is a sort of a prepped question, right. But listening to and understanding the needs of the end user, how important is that when you’re building tech,

Speaker 2 (09:46):
<laugh> a hundred percent and it’s where most people go wrong, honestly. Right. Because they have, they have an idea in their mind, which is wonderful and they they’re gonna create this amazing product. And in all the mentoring I’ve done over the years, I can’t tell you how many entrepreneurs say things like, oh, this is for everybody. Like, yes, everybody is gonna want this. And oh my God, whenever I hear that now I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Right. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah. It’s the power of niching down, but it’s too super scary, especially to a new entrepreneur. Right. Because you’re like, well, wait a second. I, you know, nicheing down, that’s a smaller market. And it’s like, yeah. But if, if you know, the thing I always say is if your marketing doesn’t speak to someone, it doesn’t speak to anyone, you

Speaker 2 (10:30):
Know? Absolutely true. So I think the trickiest thing is, and I think why it gets scary is kinda like which niche, you know, because we’re relevant to all. So which is the one to go for first. Cause you, you have all these psychological FOMO kind of things. Like what if we pick the wrong one or whatever, but, uh, but, but entrepreneurship just requires a nimbleness and the ability to pivot, like it’s really like being, if you think a, a moment about being a scientist in the lab, you have a whole bunch of hypotheses and you’re testing it, testing it, testing it, testing and testing it until Eureka, you get it. Right. Yeah. And entrepreneurship is really no different. So you’re testing, what’s known as product market fit. Yep. You know, and so it’s really not to spend a huge amount of money or not to like double down on something in a big way until you really know that someone’s willing to pay you something for what you built.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yeah. And then you can always make it more sophisticated. I like to tell people think about the very first cell phone you had and the power of just being able to talk to somebody attached to a landline or whatever. Right. Was it the iPhone? No. No. <laugh> yeah. Think, think of the difference between iPhone one and iPhone 13. Yeah. So there’s still bugs, uh, that are being fixed at all times that are still nuances. There’s still things being added. Your, your work is kind of never done. So if you come to it with this idea that you have to have it perfect right out of the gate, you kind of lose before you even had a chance to win, because there’s no way it ever will be. So I think a lot of women in particular, we hold ourselves to such high standards. We think it has to be absolutely perfect. Yeah. And that’s the thing that makes people intimidated. Yeah. And, and that’s the thing you just have to get over. It’s it’s not gonna be perfect and nor should it, and it’s it’s if, if anything, it’s great to be co-creating with your customers involving them and getting their feedback and overcoming any kind of fear of failure. It’s not it’s feedback. Yeah. It’s

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Fee it’s feedback and iteration. I love that. I love that parallel. You draw to scientific method. Right. And it’s interesting because this is a point in time, thanks to, you know, COVID and all the, the, the way that science has played out, the scientific process has played out real time in the media over the last two years in a way that we’ve probably never seen before. I mean, mostly scientists are doing this in labs and they’re, you know, taking years and decades to, to really come up with something that they feel like they can put out there. And, and so it’s, it’s, it’s an interesting parallel because I think we all understand as much as we want to believe that science is science and it’s concrete, it’s changing all the time. The stuff that we’re learning is changing all the time. And so taking that and realizing that it’s the same for us as entrepreneurs, it’s the same for your company or your product that you’re building. I just love that. That’s a great analogy. I love that analogy.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Hmm. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, it just seems, I mean, I mean the other thing that we are too, and I get still in the sort of scientific realm is we’re kind of alchemists. Yeah. We’re taking kind of coal and turning it into diamonds. Yeah. <laugh>, you know, over, over time. Yeah. And it’s a process, but you know, what I’ve learned along the way is just this, this thing about having to overcome perfectionism. I mean, cuz that’s been a part of my struggle as well. And I think for a lot of women yeah. Because we’re his in historical terms, we’re really new to this. Yeah. It’s a world that’s been shaped primarily by men and the way men talk is different from women and how we, what motivates us to be entrepreneurs. So we try and fit ourselves into these paradigms. It don’t necessarily like the they’re just a little, little bit different or a little bit alien. And, and we come at it with this thing that we think it’s really important to prove our competence at all time and how good we are. So we so focus so much on that. It leads to a perfectionism and kind of like a, a heads down. Like I’m gonna just be isolated and work really hard by myself to get this thing done. Yeah. And we deny the thing that’s innate to women is our empathy, our relationship capital, all those things, which are actually the things that run business. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
And I, I think they’re starting to become an awareness. I think this is somewhat what’s coming at the movement of diversity and inclusion and like that focus that we see on this right now also sort of spurred by the pandemic and other political things. But there’s this sort of realization that I’m seeing happening, where it’s like, oh, thing it is different. I, and it’s not all about the bottom line. And in fact, I mean, Jim Collins wrote about it in good to great years ago, right. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, I mean, almost two decades ago, three decades ago, maybe where people are really the thing that makes a thing happen. I mean, and even in, even in a

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Time of, you know, robotics and, and replacing, I’m gonna put skilled labor and quotes with, with robots who are more efficient and who don’t need to take breaks and all that kind of stuff. We’re, we’re still realizing it still comes down to people and their ingenuity and their creativity. And that is what women are amazing at. But we don’t value that only because we don’t see that valued in the world. Right. So it’s not being called for in the world because to your point, it’s been structured in a very different way. That’s not about us. So we have to kinda like redefine the structures <laugh> oh, it it’s, it’s so true. And you know, funnily enough, I just had this gray woman on my podcast, just, uh, you know, the other day talking about this balance between the masculine and the feminine energies or archetypes.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah. And how women show up in entrepreneurship really does need to be redefined around us, like around our needs. But it’s tricky though, because you still have to speak the language. If you have the type of business like I do, where you have to go out and raise venture capital. Yeah. And that is still very much a masculine archetype. Yes. Where, where your, you, you have to find a way to speak that language, even if your leadership style is different. So you’re always walking that line. So what do you take from the masculine? What do you from the feminine, but really learning? I think the biggest issue for women entrepreneurs deep down on a sub a subconscious level is learning to actually value ourselves. And, and that is just, it’s so profound. It’s, it’s a really big thing because at the root of all the things that I see women on entrepreneur is doing like under pricing yes.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Over delivering yes. Being a great advocate for their product, but forgetting to ask for the sale. Yeah. Or just all these sorts of things it’s all to do with or perfectionism. Yep. It’s all to do with a sense that, yeah. We’re not Valu ourselves. And so it’s very difficult to go sell a product or build a business if deep down, like just somewhere lurking within us, we have this subconscious block around value. And so I, I, I mean 670 odd episodes now into wings. This is a theme that with female founders in particular that comes up over and over and over and over again. So there’s some sort of, uh, a wound there. I think that that is possibly epigenetics, certainly formed by society, certainly formed by looking at, you know, everyone’s highlight reels on, on Instagram or whatever it is. There’s kind of like, am I good enough?

Speaker 1 (18:10):
You know? Yes. And how curated everything that’s put in. I mean, cuz to your point, you know, podcast are the largest growing media right now. Social media in general has taken off in a way that I don’t think, I mean maybe somebody could have predicted it, but it, I think in ways that we couldn’t have predicted and it’s, but it’s so curated. And so now it’s like the quote unquote, everyday person, but in such a curated and snapshot sort of way that me living in my head and my body and seeing all 24 hours and what I do with them and the decisions I make. And when I look good and when I don’t blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you’re comparing a snapshot and town time to your whole life. And it’s so unrealistic. And I kind of wanna dive into the fundraising thing a little bit because we do see such an inequity, you know, women founders in tech make up about 28 to 32%. It seems to vary depending on the source, but of the founder market in general. And yet we only get about two and a half percent of the, of the money as most recently as 2020. Right. So

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, that number hasn’t changed in two decades. No,

Speaker 1 (19:22):
At all. I mean, it doesn’t matter that that women are, are building businesses and particularly in tech, it’s like, you know, I see this trend with, if you’re a woman who’s building, you know, a business selling custom made jewelry or something you’ve created or whatever, like there’s a lot out there to support that. And that’s great. There should be, but for women in tech as you and I both are, the challenge is I can put it like this. So we’ve been, we’ve been in a fundraising mode for about eight months and I have another friend of mine who is also building a technology company that has an AI component to it. And the questions that he gets asked are never does the tech actually work. The only question we get asked is does the tech work? And it’s just this like really? And I’m like, and we’re not even going as far as he is in terms of like sci fineness. Right. And so it’s, it’s very interesting. And I just wonder, like what has been your experience with that process and what would be your advice to anyone who’s listening, particularly women, but anyone who’s listening, how do you navigate this?

Speaker 2 (20:30):
Oh gosh, well this is the, this is really close to my heart because raising money for PLO, you know, has not been easy. <laugh>, you know, I’m like touching wood as we’re about to close around. Like it’s like so close. So I’m just like, ah, I could taste it. You know what I mean? And, and but, but it’s very difficult. So I find what happens is women are more likely to be asked questions that put them on the defensive. And there was actually a study. I forget whether it was MIT or Harvard did the study where they, they sat in on thousands of, you know, pitch meetings of men and women and men on average were asked things like, that’s great. How are you gonna maximize growth? You know? And the women were like, how are you gonna, you know, keep the customers you have.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
Right. Yeah. It was all that. So I’ve learned over the years to, to whatever question I’m being asked is to turn it around. Yep. But deep like cycle logically going into those meetings, if you have a mindset that you are asking for a favor or that the VC is, oh my goodness, they’re gonna bestow on you. And like, you’re gonna be this grateful recipient. Yes. Um, and like you’re in a fact showing up with a begging bowl you’re you’re done before you’ve even started because it’s not a conversation that’s on a level or equivalent footing. Yeah. And psychologically you have to get it there. So that goes back to what I was talking about before, about valuing ourselves. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so this is the biggest single lesson I’ve learned, you know, having raised capital for, you know, all my businesses to varying degrees of success.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Um, uh, this is one of the things that I’ve learned along the way. So when you actually understand your value and you’ve created something and you can really speak to the numbers of what it will actually mean and what it will actually translate you, or actually the person, all your hard work, all your ingenuity, all your creativity, everything that you go that your heart and soul in building a product, getting product, market, fit, marketing, that product, getting people to pay you for it, all that that’s really hard to do. Yeah. And the fact that you’ve done that, and you can paint a picture for an investor of if they put a million dollars in, or if they put 10 million that that’s gonna 10 X and you, and you can show them, they’re doing them a favor, they’re a not doing any work. <laugh> there’s there, there really there’s a, there’s an exchange.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
All of the money is, is an exchange of value. So you gotta get all that stuff straight in your head. So like, I think it’s a psychological thing as much as anything, but there are real things that we do have to overcome in that sense. So I find it interesting too, because the valuations, uh, that a lot, uh, companies get that are, you know, have an all male executive team tend to be higher. Yep. Yep. And again, that goes back to, you know, the value. So we’ve had a lot of that. We’ve actually rejected investors for just low balling our valuation where it’s like, look, dude, if you wanna value us at like, I don’t know, something like 10 million or 8 million or something like that when our revenue, our net revenue just is on target to be like a half a million dollars a month. Are you kidding me? Yeah. You know, no, <laugh> yeah. You’re gonna get, you’re gonna get like, and you have to speak the numbers, you know? Yeah. What, so you’re asking me for a 200 X return are no, you know, so

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah. Nice try sir. Right. So, but

Speaker 2 (24:04):
So, and this is the thing is you have to really, this is what I say to women all the time. You gotta know your numbers. Yeah. You gotta know your numbers cuz that’s how they’re speaking. The other thing that’s really important to realize is that, that I think we put, and this is not a masculine, feminine thing. I think we put a lot of faith in the intelligent or the, uh, knowledge of the venture community. Yes. That isn’t necessarily there. Like they don’t, they don’t know as well as you. So like when you <laugh> I always

Speaker 1 (24:39):
Say, why are we going to these, this group of people who have a 90% failure rate at picking good stuff and then being disappointed when they turn us down <laugh>

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Well, exactly. Like they, they don’t really necessarily have the means to evaluate, so you’ve gotta assist them. You’ve gotta be able to tell a really good story. Like I think raising money is like marketing. You’ve gotta tell a really good story. You’ve gotta have a really good figure out a way to have a really personal connection yeah. With the person that you’re raising money from. Um, yeah. Uh, know your numbers <laugh> really be able to speak to what’s in it for them. Yeah. And I remember going to a, a sort of a seminar for founders once where, where the roles were changed and we evaluating other companies and what would make us write the check? And I remember the instructor or the, the guy leading the seminar saying, okay. So, you know, here are all these five startups and, and uh, just describe how you’re feeling about writing that check for a million dollars. Like how does that feel? Yeah. And I remember I had a real insight from that, cause it’s like scary to write a check for that much money, you know? So you’ve gotta use your empathy to get in the mindset of the investor. Cause right. It’s, it’s, it’s a lot of money.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
It is a lot of money. Maybe you can expand a little bit, we hear this a lot, like know your numbers and I wonder what does mean if somebody, if somebody was like, well, I hear that all the time, but what does that mean? Like what numbers really matter and, and how, you know, what does that mean? Can you, can you explain yeah. A

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Little bit, so they’re so they’re different in different businesses, right? Yeah. You know, so depending on, and this gets into, what’s gonna grow the value of your business or valuation. Yes. Yes. Okay. And so they’re so, so some of them are really obvious, like revenue, of course, if you’re making money, what’s, what’s more important is, is the money that you’re making profitable. You see all these people on Facebook, I had a million dollar launch, but what they don’t tell you is it costs $999,000. Right. To get there yeah. Million dollar launch. Right. So they don’t really have a business cause you know, they have, they have revenue. So like revenue is great. Top line revenue is great, but like, you know, how you know, profitable, is it, how, what’s your cost of user acquisition, like to like what’s the cost of acquiring a customer. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
How does that break down? How what’s your retention rate? Like, so say you get a whole bunch of customers. Are they repeat customers? Do you have, uh, recurring revenue yep. That you know, that you can count on. And then in a case of a, a social app say like P Olo things like time spent on the app matters to things like engagement. Yeah. Things like weekly active and daily active use retention matters to us. So like we were over the moon this week, we have a 92% retention rate. So when people come into the app, you know, which is like a great number we have. That’s awesome. We have a, I think our daily active number now is 42%, which is mind boggling. Wow. Um, it’s really huge. So it means that people who are in the product, people who are on puto love it.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Okay. Yeah. So yay. So we prove that the, you know, the product’s good and we continue to enhance it all the time. We have this really aggressive roadmap for like, it’s our, our, it’s not nearly complete in my mind. Yeah. Right. <laugh> okay. Never, nearly not nearly complete, but you know, we have four and a half million podcasts, you know, all this AI, all this recommendation engine, all this sort of, you know, matchmaking listeners to podcasts and each other and all that stuff going on there. Like there’s a lot happening in this app. But anyway, so we have these good numbers, but we’re raising money so we can money on marketing. All our marketing has been organic. Yeah. And right. And now we’ve gotta go seize market. And that’s one of the reasons we need capital. So when we’re talking to an investor, we have to say, okay, this is the use of proceeds of that, of that money.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
We anticipate that we’re gonna do this. And we expect this return. Here’s the rate. Here’s what we’ll do. If we’re not hitting that range, you know? Yep. Yep. That’s kind of like what, knowing your numbers are. Right. So you’re projecting out in the future, but you know what the levers are of how you’re gonna measure success. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Right. And you’re on top of things, like if you’re looking at, if you’re not looking at your numbers, just say your week to week performance or how you’re doing or whatever, you don’t really know where you are. Yeah. So you don’t have early enough warning to pivot or you can get into trouble really quickly if you’re not really watching either your spend or figuring out, oh, if we did this differently, could we reduce the, the cost to acquire users’ customer or whatever?

Speaker 2 (29:26):
Or could we save money on this or whatever. Yeah. The other thing too, I think is really important for hiring and growing a team. I think a lot of people hire their team members to do something and that’s great, but actually you should be hiring people to return a result. Um, what is the result that you want from your hiring? Your, I don’t know, your social media person, so, okay, great. So they’re gonna do your social media. They’re gonna do it. So what, what’s the result of that? Like what numbers, how are they kind of accountable? How is that gonna grow your business? And, and this is where thinking of hiring people is much more of an investment than an expense.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
Interesting. Okay. I like that. Yeah. I like that a lot,

Speaker 2 (30:13):
You know, so super, super important.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah. So I, I, I’m curious what you think about this. So there there’s this statistic out there, 42% of startups ultimately fail because no one wants what they’re building. <laugh> I wonder what you, I wonder what you think about that and what, you know, what, what, what does that make you think of?

Speaker 2 (30:33):
Well, what that makes me think of is a couple things, right? That, that, you know, people have an idea and they, they fall in love with their own idea and which is necessary for an entrepreneur to be in love with their own idea. Like there’s no way you can succeed without being in love with your own idea. It’s just, you have to validate it. Like before you build it, you gotta figure out like, you know, you gotta talk to people like, would you buy this? What would make you buy it? You know? Yeah. That kind of thing. I see a lot of companies, particularly on the tech side building features yes. And calling it a company. Yes. And, and they’re not, it’s not a company, it’s not a company that can grow or sustain or building things without understanding the, the, the context of the competitive market they’re in. Yeah. And understanding why they’re better than someone else or why someone would change their behavior in the case of PLO. It’s okay. Why is someone gonna switch from apple podcast or Spotify or Stitcher or iHeart or any of these millions of other podcast apps to PLO? How differentiated is it? How much better can we make it? Like, how can we really solve problems? So people will switch their behavior. Yes. It’s a lot to ask someone to do that.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah. And right. Why do you think it, why do, because I see the same thing that you do. It seems like more often in tech than really any other, you know, you don’t see people with restaurants, not doing the research and figuring out whether people in the area are gonna eat there. Right. Uh, why do we do this? Is it because it’s, um, you know, I guess I’m, and it’s, you know, it’s easy to build tech, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
Engineers build things like, like the joy is in the building, you know what I mean? So <laugh>, and so, you know what, I, it’s just kinda like you do what you like to do. Right. So it has a song is really cool. Like, and you have this pride in what you built, you know, so it’s a lot of, it’s a lot of it’s that I, I, you know, I think for really, really great, uh, tech companies, the ones that really stand out have a non siloed approach between the, you know, the product and the underlying tech and the marketing and sales, the, the team, even though the type of person who’s a sales person or a marketing person, as opposed to the type of personality or whatever, who’s, you know, building your algorithms or whatever are, are like wildly different. Yeah. Everybody in the, in the team has to be going in the same direction and have to understand how these things fit together.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
So for instance, as we’re looking at our product roadmap and really refining that for this year, and what’s in the first quarter, what’s in the second quarter. Yeah. We’re looking at every single thing in terms of okay. That feature is great. Yeah. That would be fun to build. And wouldn’t that be great to have that feature mm-hmm <affirmative> but how does it tie specifically into any of our core metrics? Yes. How does it advance us to more revenue? How does it advance us to, um, you know, more users or users inviting other users or yeah. You know, like whatever metric, you know, and, and so everybody’s going to, uh, think in that non-siloed crossdisciplinary way. And when you put that discipline on it, it’s gonna, the, the result is gonna be different, cuz people are gonna come up with all kinds of ideas. Like on our team, we have, we have a whole long list of things on a product roadmap, but which ones wait, or which ones to be signed, not to do.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yep. You know, cause just doing it to do it. And so I, I think that’s what that’s what happens. So you get really excited about it. Like, Hey, wouldn’t it be really cool to, you know, mint, every podcast that we have on Fido <laugh> well, yeah, that would be really cool. So. Okay, great. So how does that help the podcaster? Like, is there anything in it for the, that when they come over to us because we’re minting their podcast. Yep. You know, it’s cool. So like open question. Right. I don’t know the answer to that one yet. Yeah. Right. For example.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah. I love that. I love that. What, what you’re, you’re touching on something that I feel like you have a unique insight on, which is what is the role of a CEO really particularly, you know, you’re when you first start out, it’s just you and you’re the founder and you’re sort of making this thing happen. And then how does that role kind of shift as you start to build a company and you have teams and you have your first employee and then 10 employees, and you’re really starting to build,

Speaker 2 (34:59):
Like, I love this question because you’re really a different person at different state. I mean, still you obviously, but you, you, your role does change significantly. So last year in 2021, we went from basically two of us. Yeah. To 22 of us. Wow. In the, in the course of about two and a half months, that

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Is amazing growth. How do you handle that?

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Um, well, um, it’s, I’ve learned a lot over the years in terms of the type of leader and leadership skills. Um, and a lot of it is in the elegance of hiring the right people. I mentioned before, making sure you’re hiring the, the right people at the right time that are gonna drive the results that you need at that particular time in the company. Yeah. And so it’s not just their skillset skillset, but their cultural fit and mission alignment in all of those things. So I put a, I think a really massive part of the CEO’s role is hiring and team building, creating a really good team and a really good culture. So that is everything from setting the vision and mission of the company and being very clear almost to the point of constant repetition. Like if you feel yourself saying it, uh, over and over again, and you’re boring yourself, you probably still haven’t said it often enough.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
Like, yeah. It’s like, it’s just starting to get in over there. <laugh>

Speaker 2 (36:25):
Right. Right. So, so the way I approach that kind of team side and, and, and, and, and hiring is, I’m not a micromanager, I believe in hiring really great people, setting them up with the resources they need, you know, trusting, but verifying. Yep. Right. So like setting goals, having them set their own goals and me, you know, suggest and you know, that kind of stuff. Yep. Um, and then, you know, verifying and mentoring them and just creating a culture where people are really happy. So as a result, we could grow that quickly with great people because our team we’re actually sourcing other people for us to hire. So, oh, when you hire a players, they bring on people like a players. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so the bucket of sort of where we are now, you know, like, like really we’re past the startup stage now we’re now in the kind of growth stage we’ve, you know, we’ve got product market fit.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Like we’re now in that kind of, okay, we’re going, you know, big for market share big for revenue, you know, all those sorts of things. Yep. And we have to grow our team like by projected, by the end of the year, we’ll probably have about 60 people on our team. So, so this is now, you know, you know, moving. So for me, it’s really important to always have the right people, the cultural fit, make sure people are in the right seats, uh, hire slowly fire fast. If someone’s not a cultural fit. I, I believe that you can train someone in just about anything if it’s intrinsic to them, but, but you can’t necessarily train character. Right. Um, right, right. Um, and so, so that cultural fit is, is, is really, really, really, really important, I think for us, every, every company. So I see that being a huge part of my role. I see the other part is the resourcing. Like I mentioned, making sure that the team has all the resources that, that we, we need making sure that we have the team we need. That means that I’m always fundraising. Yes. Yes. And I’m always looking at, I mean, you know, it’s like a permanent thing, like we’ll close our super seed round sometime in the next few weeks, but like we’re already starting work on our follow on round before that’s even closed.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah. Right. Yep. Yep. I mean, it’s one of the things that you’ll hear and I think it’s the thing, thing that people wish they heard less, but as the CEO you’re always raising, you know? Yes you are, you are always thinking about,

Speaker 2 (38:54):
And yes. And you’re always Ava, you’re always evangelizing. So there’s D types of CEOs. Yeah. Right. And it’s, it’s, there was a great book written sometime back now called rocket fuel, which is really good for anybody to look up because it talks about the difference between the CEO and the COO and, and understanding we have a COO yet. Okay. I I’ve been doing a lot of that work myself, but I can hardly wait until I, you know, we may just start out with a VP operations. Yeah. And then have that person, you know, uh, if they’re the right person climb up to the, the, the more officer level, but, but in this case though, this says, are you a visionary or are you, and they use the word integrator. Yeah. That the, the, what they mean by integrator is the person who operationalizes the vision, the executor.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
Um, yeah. So, so at different stages of a company, like you get to the point where you’re, you’re gonna need, if you’re a vision, which is really what I am, that’s what I like. And all my personality tests and my strength finder and all of that, it’s all like futurist, you know, visionary, strategic, you know, all that stuff. Right? Yep. Yep. So it’s kinda like who, who I am and I’m an activator, you know, like I start things like, I’m really good at that. Right? Yep. So knowing your, or strengths, your intrinsic strengths, which you can kind of understand, or what do you love to do that nobody else can do? That’s like unique to you. Yeah. What do you love to do that somebody else can do as well as you, or possibly better than you, but you can do really well. Yeah. And then what can you do that you don’t really like doing, and then what do you really suck at? Right.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
And,

Speaker 2 (40:39):
And you have to, cause everybody does suck at something like that. Good at everything’s. So it’s, it really requires a deep honesty with yourself and deciding what it is that you need to learn yourself as opposed to what can you delegate? Because it’s not intrinsic to you and you could burn a lot of time, money waste a lot of time, just because you’re learning something that someone else is always gonna be better than you at. Yes. As a CEO, you do not have to do everything and nor should you. Yeah. Like your job is to really, really delegate. So in my case, I can hardly wait for that, that moment. Cuz there’s so many operational details. And like we were talking before about being on top of your numbers and you know, all that kind of stuff and really the HR side of things and, and how the business, how the marketing is working with the engineering, you know?

Speaker 2 (41:29):
So there’s no gaps in communication, all that stuff. As you get bigger and you scale, you, you start to need more of a management layer there. And, and then there’s a new challenge because how do you retain your startup nimbleness as you’re getting to this bigger thing? So I like to think of myself as just anticipating every next step. Okay. So I’m here right now, but now that I’ve master, well, I’m already thinking, okay, so where are we gonna be? And who am I being six months from now? Cuz it’s gonna be different than what I’m doing right

Speaker 1 (42:03):
Now. Yeah. Cuz your company’s gonna be in a different place and you got different challenges and totally different, different priorities. And yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
And so the other part of my role though, or the a real strategic partnership, so where say Pablo is doing a lot of work with like a, a major TV manufacturer right now. And, and with large media companies and some IOT companies and all that kind of stuff. So those sorts of strategic, you know, explorations and all, all of that is my kind of Bailey wick as it will. But hopefully very soon we can start to hire some, you know, business development, partnership, enablement, yeah. Business development people and like a marketing team and all of that, you know? So yeah. So I have a lot of hiring now to do on the marketing sales side, which did really well on the, you know, product engineering side. <laugh> we need, you expand that team as well, by the way. But like, so if anyone’s looking for a job, you know, we’re hiring, so you know what I mean? So, uh, yeah. And we’re always kinda like, it’s kinda like always hiring, always fundraising always, really got your eye on the ball in terms of what’s next. Yeah. And onto always at all times by what do I, I not know that. I don’t know.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
Oh yeah. Yeah. It’s a great question to ask <laugh>

Speaker 2 (43:21):
That’s the entrepreneurial paranoia. Yes.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
<laugh> yes. It’s a great question. What do you think, you know, if you had to sort of sum up what, what is the most important personality trait or character or that’s something that someone needs to have to be a successful entrepreneur? Mm

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Oh, okay. Not in any particular order <laugh> but cur curiosity. Oh, I love that. Absolutely vital. You really need to understand people and be curious us about them. Whether it’s your team investors, your customers, you know, like, I mean business is about people at the end of yes, it is of the day, right? The curiosity and the empathy and listening ability to really understand other people I think is pretty crucial. At least if, if not in the founder, like having those skills high up your team, like a, a co-founder or somebody. Yeah. That has to be in that mix in the founding team, whether it’s a co an individual founder or a group of co-founders, but someone’s gotta really have that. I think, um, the other thing though, too, is just resilience. Yes. The ability to not take it personally, just because you try something and it doesn’t work. Yeah. All those things, like if something’s not working, it’s like, oh, okay. It’s not working well, let’s try it this way. Oh, that’s not working. Let’s try it this way. If you go back to Thomas Edison, you know, like what I, what is it like the 10, I came up

Speaker 1 (44:58):
Thousand not to make a light bulb <laugh> right.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
10,000 times. Like, so if that was good enough for Thomas Edison, it’s good for anybody else. Yeah. So like, cuz nobody’s just gonna, you know, so I think we have unrealistic expectations. So it’s kinda like getting out of our own way and, and in allowing ourselves to fail and not taking it personally when we do, because failure is at the root of innovation and critical to that kind of resilience. But the curiosity is also about, you know, how to make the product better. How to curiosity about your competitors, about your market. Right. <laugh>, you know, curiosity,

Speaker 1 (45:35):
All the things <laugh> right.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
And the willingness. Okay. And I’d say the third thing and the, and, and this is really important. Not having to be the smartest person in the room. In fact, as a CEO, uh, trying to be the dumbest person in the room, because you were actually set out to be the dumbest person in the room, it means that you are surrounding yourself with people that you’re gonna always be learning from. Ooh, I love that. So like leave your ego at the door. There’s no place for ego or vanity or any of that stuff in this business, if you wanna succeed. And there’s a lot of entrepreneurs that have that in spades, you know? Yeah. We look at entrepreneurs and think, but actually I think really you, the best ones aren’t at, aren’t in it for ego. Yeah. Or personal aggrandizement, like it’s okay to wanna make money.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
I think that’s great. Go make a lot of money. Money’s great. It’s not that, but the, the ones, you know, if you have a mission, if you have a real reason, like a real dream or a reason, or like you just really care, you’re gonna, so all the problem or you’re gonna make a difference or make a dent in the universe of Steve jobs said, or you’re gonna that’s vital as well. Because there are gonna be really times. Yeah. Like for anybody, everybody there happens for me in every business and there have been like amazing times, like where like even hour by hour. Yeah. You can go from Heights to depths, to like, oh my God, am I gonna make payroll? Like, just like, you’re responsible for other people. Yeah. Like there’s going to be that happens that you don’t predict that you can’t control. And like, all you can do is control your reaction to it. So having that dream or the, the mission or the, that keeps you going, keeps you passionate about it keeps you on course, even as you’re pivoting and yeah. Trying to deal with stuff you can’t control or whatever. <laugh> I think it’s just vital for your psychological health. Yeah. Cause this is not easy, you know? No it’s

Speaker 1 (47:29):
Windy and there’s there’s days, like you’re saying where I feel like I’m bipolar or something because I’m like, I wake up in the morning and I’m so energized. And then something happens. I’m like, oh my gosh, I didn’t see this coming. And so now I’m scrambling. And then, and then I’m like downed by it. And then I, we sort it out. And then it’s like, by the end of the day, we’re back up to a high. And I’m like, what just happened? Well,

Speaker 2 (47:48):
What just happened every day? Like every day is like that, you know what I mean? And then, and then after a while though, it begins to moderate because you start to anticipate, it’s like, oh yeah, I remember when this happened to me before <laugh> and, and you, and you got through it before. And so you’re like, okay, so you’re developing kind of a confidence in yourself and your team that you know, that whatever’s gonna happen. You’re you’re gonna find a way. And, and that starts to, uh, level off those peaks and, and troughs a little bit. Right? Yeah. Starts to kind of moderate. If you think of a sound wave, it starts to get just a little more shallow. Yep. And, and, and <laugh>, but this is why I joke all the time that if you want therapy, just be on entrepreneur.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
I don’t get it every day. Cause you’ll get it.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Cause it’s, what’s gonna happen is all the challenges is gonna throw all your subconscious stuff at you. Mm-hmm <affirmative> it’s gonna, it’s gonna surface. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
Being an entrepreneur is the absolute best mirror for learning who you are. <laugh> right.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
So it’s gonna surface stuff about like old money stories or what you believe of other people or like trust issues, abandonment issues, whatever issues you may have. And we all have them. Yeah. It’s gonna surface all that stuff. Right. Yeah. And which is great because if it’s on the surface, you can deal with it. But if it’s very deep below, like an as a subconscious iceberg, you never gonna be able to really <laugh>. So yes, my, this is my thing, you know, like there should, someone should make the t-shirt want therapy be an entrepreneur. Yeah. <laugh> there you go. Oh

Speaker 1 (49:22):
My gosh. I love that. Oh my gosh. Well, this has been an incredible conversation as we wrap up here. I just wondered, are there any other, I mean, obviously you run a podcasting company, we’ve talked about wings of inspired business. There’s a couple of other resources you’ve mentioned that I’ll put in the show notes, but are there any specific podcasts or books or resources that you’d recommend knowing my audience of entrepreneurs or wanna be entrepreneurs?

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Yeah. One of the books that I found really helpful was gay Hendrix is the big leap.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
Yes. I love that book.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
It’s so good because it talks about our upper limits. Yes. And I think sometimes entrepreneurs sort of like can, well just people in any walk of life actually can end up self sabotaging without knowing it. Right? Yes. So that’s a great book to read. I also think de you know, on your, this is an old book it’s been around for a long time, but the E myth revisited is vital reading. If you haven’t read that yet. Yep. And it’s, it’s really about being in alignment. You know, also any of the Jim Collins books, you know, good to great built to last, I don’t know all those books are, are sort of required reading for an entrepreneur. I also think things like, I mean, I’m very spiritual. I, my entrepreneurial journey has made me more and more and more spiritual. So it’s not really a joke about the therapy piece, you know, there for me, uh, there’s some great books like the surrender experiment and, and other things where it really helps you grow personally in a way that you can really be that great leader. Yeah. It’s not just about learning about business. It’s about personal growth. Yeah. So I would suggest, you know, those sorts of things and like, if you don’t already take up meditation or something like that, where you can really kind of clear your head and really be more in the realm of inspiration rather than doing

Speaker 1 (51:17):
Yeah. Being in flow. Right. It’s easy to, it’s easy to get stuck in busy work in the to-do list. I do this to myself all the time. And then I look up at the end of the day and I’m like, you haven’t been mindful. You haven’t taken time for awareness. Like, are you even doing the right things? And how do you know that if you’re not doing that right.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
Oh God, Cynthia. So if you have time, there’s this one quick story, I’ll be really quick. Yeah, please. But I had one day I, so I do this morning meditation and I set my to-do list as it were around my inspiration list. Like what comes to me in the morning about what activities could I do today that would have the most leverage? Like say if I did one thing, would it have a multiplicity of impacts? Yeah. And I think about my, my time, that way, how to leverage my time best. Right. I love, so I had this morning and, and I got like, kinda like five downloads of things. And I wrote them down in order. And for whatever reason, I was working on priorities, 2, 3, 4, and five <laugh> and not working. And I wasn’t getting anywhere with 2, 3, 4, and five. Like they just weren’t advancing.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
I was like, like frustrated, like nothing was working. Like, you know, just like even to the <inaudible> I’m not getting a call returned or a response that I needed or like, whatever it was right. There were all these blocks. And then I was like, oh my God, lunch came around. I was frustrated. I’m like, oh yeah. Priority number one. I haven’t even touched that. And it’s priority number one. How interesting. So <laugh>, I started work on priority number one, and I swear to God, 2, 3, 4, and five, just resolve themselves without any effort of my own. Wow.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
No kidding. And

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Sometimes stuff happens through no effort of our own. Yeah. Like, you know, why is

Speaker 1 (52:52):
It so hard for us to accept that too? Right? Like, why is it so hard? We hear this all the time. Why is it so hard to put down the thing? Is it about control? Like

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Yeah. Maybe it’s control or ego or I don’t know. There’s some, I, I suspect and I, cuz I, this is something and I’ve worked on a lot of my life. There’s some sort of story that it has to be hard to be valuable. Yes. Or you, you have to have worked hard. Cause how many times have it been drilled into us that like people are rewarded who work hard. Yes. And so, so if you believe that and like really believe that in your core, you think that nothing’s gonna happen. That’s good. Unless you work hard. So then you work hard because you just, your your mindset won’t even allow you to see it in any other way. So you block other ways for things to manifest. Yeah. Which

Speaker 1 (53:41):
I mean, I, which is why the, the meditation or the prayer practice or whatever, or whatever, you know, you do can be so powerful because it, it can release the blocks and, and help you move in a way that you just can’t see in our, like everyday how the world works. Right.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So true. So true. But that’s one that I’ve wrestled with, cuz for the longest time, it’s like, oh, it had to be hard or taking pride and building something on fumes. Wait a minute. Like, do you look at Oprah and say, God, look at how great, you know, or Steve jobs. Cause she built it on fumes. No, like you’re not thinking about it. Right. Yeah. And so I, I understood within myself that I was actually my own block to money in a way, because I was taking some weird pride in all the hard work and being able to do it with nothing. You know? I think a lot of women do that too. Look at me. Yeah. I have done so much with nothing. So

Speaker 1 (54:32):
Little. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Not something to be proud of, you know, <laugh>

Speaker 1 (54:35):
<laugh>

Speaker 2 (54:38):
But we are, you know, it’s weird. Right. So, so it’s like it’s what are those underlying attitudes that you may not even know that you have, but you probably do, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
Oh my gosh. I love talking to you. This conversation has been so amazing. And I, I, you know, when I reached out I was a little nervous. I was like, maybe she won’t have time. And you were like, yeah, of course. And I was like, oh my gosh, I’m sorry. Yeah. But

Speaker 2 (55:00):
Then I had to reschedule to reschedule a couple times. So I’m sorry

Speaker 1 (55:03):
About that. It’s fine. No, it’s fine. It was the holidays. What are you gonna do? I mean, stuff happens all good. It was a perfect timing. And I have so enjoyed this conversation. I just wanna thank you. Thank you so much for joining us for sharing your story. If there are people who have questions for you or they’d love to get in touch with you, what is the best way for people to reach out and follow

Speaker 2 (55:24):
Or whatever? My goodness. Okay. Well, so the thing that I would like the most, yeah. Please go. If you like podcasts like this one, download pod Olo, and we’ll recommend a whole bunch of podcasts, uh, for you based on what you’re interested in, can follow wings there, we’ve got 4.5 million podcasts and they’re all like personalized for you and you can connect with friends. Uh, you can definitely like comment on wings up. So, you know, that’s the number one way, but then I’m also on all, you know, social media. So you can find me on Instagram at Melinda Witstock 2020 or P dolo, uh, there, Twitter P dolo network or Melinda wings. And I’m all over Facebook. I’m not using as much these days, but like, you know, you can find me there and, you know, PLO, you know, dot com and, and just, you know, all the ways. I mean, I’m, I’m findable, LinkedIn, all

Speaker 1 (56:16):
The ways. I love it. I love it. I will make sure to include all that in the show notes. So it’s really easy for people to find you. Thank you again. So very much, Melinda, we appreciate your time, your journey and your, your willingness to share your wisdom and your insight is it’s incredible. And I’m very, very grateful that you shared your time and your story with my, with my audience today. So thank you. Oh, well,

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Thank you. And I appreciate the opportunity. It’s always great to talk with you, Cynthia as well.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
Thank you. Same, same, same. All right. Y’all thanks for joining us for this episode as always happy entrepreneur and I will see y’all next time.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Precursa: The Startup Journey. If you have an idea for a startup and you want to explore the proven process of turning your idea into a viable business, check us out at precursa.com. Make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, so you never miss an episode. Until next time…